Episode #59: Perinatal mental health with Catherine Mellinger and Lisette Weber
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In this episode, Rhonda chats with perinatal mental health advocates, Catherine Mellinger and Lisette Weber about their non-profit work with Together Waterloo, how they got into it and WHY!
Catherine Mellinger (she/they) is a queer femme birthing parent to two neurodiverse children, who identifies as living with an invisible disability. She is a certified Expressive Arts Therapist having graduated from the CREATE Institute in 2011, and continued on to gain training in Perinatal Mental Health from Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Trainings and Postpartum Support International. She began to specialize in working with Perinatal populations due to her own lived experience of pregnancy and postpartum mental health challenges, due to a pre-existing mental health disorder.
Lisette Weber (she/her) is a mama of two, a certified postpartum doula, and a perinatal mental health activist. Her experience with postpartum depression and anxiety led her into her work with postpartum populations. She is a certified Full Spectrum Doula through Birthing Advocacy Doula Trainings. Lisette has further education in perinatal mental health through CPMHT, PSI, and 2020 Moms. With a passion for helping others, she also became a certified GPS facilitator to provide peer support groups in her area. She currently juggles her volunteer work with two rambunctious kiddos at home.
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LINKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED IN EPISODE
Follow Together Waterloo on IG
Donate to Climb Out of the Darkness
Become a Star Supporter for Together Waterloo
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SHOW NOTES:
(0:51) - Welcome and intro to our special guests: Catherine Mellinger and Lisette Weber!
(3:00) - Catherine and Lisette tell us a little bit more about themselves and what got them into perinatal mental health
(18:09) - What makes Lisette and Catherine so passionate about supporting folks in the perinatal mental health journey?
(25:00) - Catherine and Lisette shed some light on the imbalanced access to perinatal health support in Waterloo region and how their work hopes to inspire change
(29:50) - How do Lisette and Catherine get their name and business out there to find clients who need their support?
(37:41) - How did Together Waterloo come to be, and how does it serve the community?
(57:58) - What advocacy initiatives is Together Waterloo a part of that others can get involved in?
(1:00:26) - Is there anything else that Lisette and Catherine would like to leave our listeners with?
(1:07:44) - Episode wrap up!
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Episode #59: Perinatal mental health with Catherine Mellinger and Lisette Weber
We're excited to have you join us for this episode of Pelvic Health and Fitness. I'm Dayna Morellato, Mom, Orthopedic and Pelvic Health Physiotherapist. And I'm Rhonda Chamberlain, Mom, Orthopedic Physiotherapist and Pre Postnatal Fitness Coach. On this show, we have open and honest conversations about all phases of motherhood, including fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, menopause, and everything in between.
We also provide helpful education and information on fitness, the pelvic floor, and many aspects of women's health, including physical, mental, and emotional wellness. Please remember as you listen to this podcast that this is not meant to treat or diagnose any medical conditions. Please contact your medical provider if you have specific questions or concerns.
Thanks so much for joining us. Grab a cup of coffee. Or wine. And enjoy!
Welcome everyone to another episode of the Pelvic Health and Fitness podcast. Today I am honored to welcome perinatal mental Health Advocates Catherine Mellinger and Lisette Weber. So before we get into our questions in our chat today, I'll just do a little bio about both of them.
So Catherine, whose pronouns are she, they, is a queer femme birthing parent to two neurodiverse children. who identifies as living with an invisible disability. She is a certified expressive arts therapist, having graduated from the CREATE Institute in 2011 and continued on to gain training in perinatal mental health from Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Trainings.
That's a mouthful. It's a mouthful, yeah. And Postpartum Support International. She began to specialize in working with perinatal populations due to her own lived experience of pregnancy and postpartum mental health challenges due to a pre existing mental health disorder. And Lisette, whose pronouns are she, her, is a mama of two, a certified postpartum doula, and a perinatal mental health activist.
Her experience with postpartum depression and anxiety led her to into her work with postpartum populations. She is a certified full spectrum doula through birthing advocacy doula trainings. Lisa has further education in perinatal mental health through CPMHT, PSI, and 2020 moms. With a passion for helping others, she also became a certified GPS facilitator.
to provide peer support groups in her area. She currently juggles her volunteer work with two rambunctious kiddos at home. Thank you so much to both of you for joining us today, Catherine and Lisette. Thank you for having us. Yeah. I love the word rambunctious. Rambunctious. Yeah. Such a good word. It definitely paints a picture.
It paints a picture and seems joyful at the same time. Yeah, it does. It's just like they, they're always busy. They're always busy. But rambunctious is a more interesting way to say it. I love that. Yes. All right. So we heard your bios there, but I would love to hear from both of you just a little bit more about yourselves and what got you into the world of perinatal mental health.
So I'd love to start with Catherine for that one. Yeah. I mean, I think like a lot of people who come to this work, it was definitely through my own experience. Um, I've met very few people who work in perinatal mental health that haven't been through something themselves, whether that's, pregnancy loss or pregnancy complications or just, you know, traumatic birth, difficult postpartum experience.
Um, it's very rare to find someone who hasn't been through something. So very much through my own lived experience. Um, I do, I did come to being a parent. With a preexisting mental health condition that I'd had since I was a child. Um, so I've known, you know, I was diagnosed with OCD when I was like in primary school.
So it's like a very, it's a lifelong experience for me. That's I've had managed for years and years and years. Um, before getting pregnant, I had tools that I used. I had a lot of understanding. Um, And when I was pregnant and, you know, with my midwives, like there was always that question of like, um, how's not really how's your mental health, but just like, is your OCD managed?
And that was kind of it. And I was like, well, yeah, it's managed, you know, I've been managing for 20 plus years. Um, but nobody really prepared me for what the potential was of how the birthing process, the hormone changes, the life transformation. Um, nobody really told me like what I was at risk of, I think because.
They were like, well, she's managing, but like, I'd never managed it with a newborn baby and a body that was hurting, um, and trying to like, feed a child from my body. So in postpartum, like many, many things that I had not experienced for decades just came raging back. And it was like shocking. It was shocking how quickly I understood that I was not okay.
Um, and by five weeks postpartum, thankfully my midwives were able to refer me because you only have care for six weeks. So most people would not be able to tell their midwives. They're not doing well because. A lot of people won't realize until later, but I knew right away like I'm not okay, you know, and so thankfully got referred to, um, the reproductive life stages program because I was in Toronto at the time at women's college, um, and went through the process there later finding out.
Technically speaking, I could have been referred to that program during my pregnancy. Um, so, you know, a lot of learning there. And I had already trained as an expressive arts therapist. And so I think I just, my curiosity got sort of piqued where I was like, what is this? Like, what is this world? Um, what is this thing that's happening to me?
And how do I fold this? experience that I'm going through, like into the work of actually being a therapist. And, um, and that was sort of the beginning of the process of like, what is this thing? Because I had previously mainly worked with, with kids. And when you're working with kids, you also work with parents.
Um, and then fast forward to my second child, um, we had moved to Waterloo where we are now and very much going in. I almost didn't have a second, um, which is very valid for a lot of people who have had a. huge struggle with their first postpartum experience. Um, but I just knew I wanted a second. And so it was like, okay, worst case scenario, what's the worst case scenario?
What do we need to cover? Um, I had amazing support from, um, a doula that I was working with, but just looking. Like while I was pregnant, like looking up postpartum supports, I just was like, where are they? Oh, this phone number is still listed on the website, but there's no program or there's nobody to answer the phone.
Um, there was just a lot that was not there. And, and there was one program, which is a very well established program. But my experience of postpartum was anxiety/OCD. And so leaving the house was terrifying to me. Like making it out to the front porch was like a really big deal after I had my first. And I would be like, I had to sometimes set timers for how long I could stay outside to like challenge myself.
Um, so like leaving the house and going to an earlier center for a group with a Like collection of other parents was like terrifying, like there was no way that I was going to do that. Um, and at the time, the only support I was finding was in person at an earlier center. And, uh, I just was like, there's no way there's no way.
Um, and, you know, thankfully was exceptionally well followed in my second pregnancy, which made me realize like, Oh, this is how somebody should be. Right during pregnancy. And a lot of that came from my own advocacy of saying like, I need this. Like this, I need this and I need this and I need this. Um, and so was very thankful for that second experience.
It was quite healing for me, which I don't take for granted because it's not for everyone. Um, but definitely just launched me even farther into like, where, where are the people who are doing this? And, and because I had that certification, um, to work in expressive arts therapy, I just got very interested in where those things intersect and then started getting a lot more.
Um, interested in specifying my training and really like digging into it. Um, and so yeah, very much from personal experience. And then, I mean, I'll let Lisette tell her story, but just meeting Lisette too, sort of started a whole other. Another layer of the direction of the work. Yeah. Thank you for sharing, Catherine.
I'd love to hear your story, Lisette. Yeah. Um, so essentially went into my first birth in 2019 or 2017. Wow. What year was it again? What year is it? Um, isn't it 2020 still? Um.
I just, that's the one I can confirm for you because we both had babies in 2017. Yeah. 2017. Yeah. Um, was my first, uh, I, you know, was a person who grew up thinking I'd be a great parent. It was going to be so wonderful. It was kind of like checking the boxes off of adulthood, you know, Finding a partner, getting married, having babies, like, so, so it kind of hit me with like a brick, um, with my postpartum experience.
I hated it. I hated being pregnant first off. Um, it's so uncomfortable and then, and then just postpartum was hard because I didn't realize really how to ask for the support I needed because what I needed was somebody to tell me to sleep. Um. A note like that. It just didn't, you know, is lots of different things went on and like, I just wasn't really in a dark place.
Um, for me, a lot of it was intrusive thoughts. It was, um, standing at the door to my house with my keys trying to figure out where I could go because I didn't want to be where I was with my baby. I was just sort of like, this is too much. This is too hard. Somebody else is going to be doing a better job.
So if I just disappear, things will be better for, for my daughter. And, um, so yeah, it was kind of really crappy. When you're like, I had to ask for help, um, which was shocking. Um, in terms of just being like, I don't feel like I'm doing okay to my family doctor. Which then you get, like, given a screening, they leave the room, and you're there with your screaming baby at, like, one of your well babies, and it's just so stressful and so easy to lie on those, um, screeners, but I was just like, I don't feel good at all.
And thankfully, at that point, um, Catherine and I had met and were kind of friends and she was very open with her experience of her first and what that did to her and her mental state. And so just being like, okay, going off of what Catherine said and like reaching out to Catherine and just being like, I really like feel crappy.
Like nothing is going well. Everything is such a struggle. I'm exhausted. I didn't feel connected to my baby. And she's just like, you need support. Um, so at the time, again, it was just like, there was one therapist and one support group that got recommended, um, to which the therapist had a wait list. And for my anxiety, leaving my house wasn't okay.
Um, my, my postpartum anxiety told me that, um, Like if I left my house, my daughter would be, would cry and people would think I'm inadequate and then I would lose my baby. So I wasn't going to an in person group, um, at all. Um, but with help, I got, I got better. Like I got to a new normal as a parent. I don't think you ever really go 100 percent back to who you were, but I was, you know, finding a groove and things were going great.
Fast forward to 2019 when we were having our second, um, that's when I realized like, let's get the support system. We, you know, hired a doula. We had it more organized with family, um, just to better support us so that we would have somebody to watch our oldest and like the focus I really wanted on that first, like few weeks was just like me, a baby and a bed.
Um, Which was like, so great because you're healing, um, and just to be supported in that. Um, so like relatively, things went well for my second. Um, I felt so supported and then pandemic hit, um, in 2020. So I had a three month old and it just, it, it was a shock. I mean, to everybody, because of, What the pandemic was, but also I had like this three month old and I had support that just basically disappeared overnight.
Um, suddenly it was like, felt illegal to ask for help. Um, so like there was some depression, um, that kind of crept back in, but it like, that was really where I was realizing the difference of my experience of having help and support. Versus being all alone. Um, so that sort of led me towards, you know, becoming a doula.
Um, my, we had the most amazing doula who was just, you know, willing to Be there for as long as we needed her. She had no, you know, limitations. I mean, we had to let her sleep and eat, but like, That's kind of you. That's kind of us to let her like, but you know, like she was like, okay, you seem like you're at this like good place.
She never left us in crisis, which was like, so. Necessary of just somebody being like, this is what I'm seeing. This is like a good thing. Or this is like, this is what we're looking at to be worried about. And it just helped so much with like, just keeping a level head, just someone having the knowledge to just be like, no, things are actually going okay.
Um, to like, just tell you sort of. What's going well. And what would be a worry was such a big, um, help for me. And so I went, uh, started my training to become a postpartum doula with a eight month old, no nine month old or something. Everybody has time to start educations with babies. So that's a good idea.
Um, Yeah. So then I did that, did more training with, um, postpartum support international, Catherine and I got into conversations. Um, she, I mean, Catherine continued to support me throughout the whole time. I'm pretty sure she dropped off some chocolate during the pandemic at some point, you know, it was just like those little pieces of support were just so impactful.
And so we sort of. looked at each other and we're just like, there's not enough support here. What can we do to better serve this community? And so that's sort of how Together came to be. Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing. And I think this is, you know, I sort of see the tides changing in the sense of moms sharing openly their experience versus feeling like they have to sugarcoat and have this rainbows and butterflies.
Um, the way they talk about their experience and Dana and I shared about our own mental health struggles on this podcast as well. And similar to both of you, I struggled with my first, also born in 2017. And, uh, postpartum anxiety was what I struggled with. And, uh, yeah, even working in healthcare, I felt lost.
I felt I also felt sort of resentful and felt I had a colicky baby and just felt like I wasn't equipped to do the job and I was missing the maternal gene or something that people had to calm their babies and same as both of you the second time around in 2019 I was much more of an advocate for myself but I think Going into the first I was sort of ignorance is bliss type approach and just assumed I'd be fine and and I wasn't and so I think I'm excited to talk to both of you just about, like, how do we change that for people?
How do we change that so that people's first experience isn't terrifying? And then they figure it out the second time around, right? So I think that's what kind of needs to change in our society that We're aware of these things while we're pregnant with our first child, right? Yeah. So you sort of touched on your stories, which thank you so much for sharing.
And, um, I can see the passion sort of coming from that, but I'd love to hear just a little bit more about what makes both of you just so passionate about this area and supporting folks along their perinatal journey. So let's start with Lisette. Hmm. I think. It, the passion really comes from not wanting people to go through our experiences, like, not that saying that everybody will have the exact same experiences, but knowing how it feels to be so dark and so low in your life in a moment in time where you're supposed to be, you're supposed but like, it can be a thing you can enjoy with support.
You know, it, it can be an easy time, quote unquote, with support. So it's just, um, knowing that it just is like, we see it with, um, clients with friends who, who are having their first or their second, it's like, people are talking about it. They're like, I'm having a doula. I'm getting a, you know. Already have a therapist because I have pre existing conditions.
You know, it's just, it's actually seeing people taking care of themselves because they know about it and they know that there is support, I think. And that really just kind of is like, we did that, you know, like we made that connection or, um, yeah, you know, you take it as like a little, like pat on the back a bit when we, when we hear like, Oh, like public health referred somebody to our resource list or, you know, it's just, it's, it's knowing that we're out there and people are finding out about us.
And we're just like, that's one more person who isn't going to be lying on their kitchen floor in hysterics because they just can't. Um, yeah, I think that's sort of. Yeah, just knowing that there is help and knowing that they're not alone. I think that's huge. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Anything to add to that, Catherine?
Yeah, I mean, I agree with all of that. I also think for me to a lot of what drives me is just that that knowledge that I have that like nothing about who I am or my pre existing mental health deters at all from the parent that I am. And I think that's because so many of us are just, you know, it's, it's a very valid reason why some people don't have children, because And a lot of that is because we've been fed these sort of societal narratives of like, oh, well, if you have, you know, OCD in particular, it's like, well, if you've lived with that, like, should you be having children?
Like, we have such embedded ableism that goes so far beyond. What people see and what people sort of recognize as being ableism. There are so many people who are questioning whether they should be parents because maybe they have ADHD. Maybe they have OCD. Maybe they have a history of anxiety or depression.
Maybe they have bipolar disorder. Fair enough, but that doesn't, that doesn't define who you are as a parent. And I think that really drives me because very often I've been in situations where my anxiety gets weaponized against me. And. I'm so sick of it for everyone. Right. Where it's like this feeling of like, are you sure, are you sure you can take that on?
Right. Like, are you sure you have the capacity? Um, and I think that really lights a fire under my ass because I just feel so strongly, like we can know the truth about how something might go, which is maybe it's going to be really effing hard. And we can still do it. We can still do it. If we have people who are saying, yeah, I'm in this with you.
Or like, here's the things that you can take with you on that journey. That is going to be hard. Right. I'm a huge advocate for like, even if you don't have a preexisting condition or like a history of mental health or anything, even if you're somebody who just like, it happens to you, just plan for it.
Like plan for the worst, just go into it with like your blinders off. You know, and so I think that really, really fuels me because there's, there's no reason why we should be made to feel like somehow we are going to be perceived as lesser parents than someone who didn't struggle. And also because I don't think it's about resilience.
Like I see the kind of weaponized resilience that's happening. Like, Oh, you had such a hard time. So you must appreciate your baby that much more. Or like, you must be able to tell everyone, blah, blah, blah. Like, I'm not, I'm not okay with that either. So it's finding that zone where it's like, let's just tell each other the truth.
Let's just tell each other the truth and say, I'm in this truth with you. And you are like a thousand percent. Going to make it through this, even if it's going to be hard, it's not going to make you less of a parent. You do not have to be resilient for anybody. You can have a really crappy time and you're going to have people around you while you're having that crappy time.
And it's going to change. It's not going to be that way forever. Um, so yeah, I think a lot of the sort of like societal perspective on, um, parents who struggle is also what really, It like really fuels me to change, to change that, to change that narrative. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I think the one thing that I really helped me was understanding that two things can coexist at the same time.
You can be grateful and appreciative for your experience as a mother and also be resentful and stress. Yeah. Right. Like I think. Yeah, we live in a world where you can feel joyous and you can struggle at the same time. Those two things can coexist. And just because you're struggling doesn't mean there isn't joy.
Yes. Yeah. So I think, yeah, we just live in a world where we're sort of meant to choose one or the other, right? Where that's just not real, right? The real realness is both can coexist. So yeah. Um, love it. So, you know, we're talking about you know, getting help for people in the perinatal mental health world, but access can be an issue, right?
We would love if All of these things are easily accessible, but that's just not the truth. So, I love how you both are such advocates for this. Um, we are all in Waterloo region. I'm in Cambridge. You guys, are you Kitchener Waterloo? Both of you? Yeah. So, could you just touch on, to our listeners, and shed some light on the imbalanced access that exists in the perinatal mental health world.
We'll talk about Waterloo region specifically, because that's where you're both working. And just about how your work hopes to inspire change in that. So let's start with you, Catherine. Yeah. I mean, in terms of barriers, like the, the first one really is that very much, you know, having a baby as part of generally being a part of the medical system, right.
And so we have to really look at where the barriers are in the medical system for people getting mental health care. Um, because when like birthing is very much. Sort of medical process, even if you are with midwives, whereas mental health is very much something else. So those, those two things don't generally coexist within the space of health care.
They're sort of seen as two separate things. So even just within the system in which we birth, there's, there's a barrier to having the support for both of those things at the same time. Um, and definitely there's a lot of logistics, right? Like, do you have a family doctor? Yes or no? Because we, because we're sort of working within that medical system, particularly in this region.
Um, which isn't to say that there's a problem with the medical system. It's just the realities of the system we deal with. Um, if you don't have a family doctor, then who do you go to in the birthing process in the postpartum process? Um, so, you know, what we're seeing is that access really, it comes from the space of systemic in terms of having systemic barriers and the way that The medical system is sort of arranged and how people access information.
Um, that's very sort of like practical and logistical barriers, but then there's also so many barriers that are interpersonal, relational, cultural, um, stigma based. There's a lot of stigma around not doing okay about talking about intrusive thoughts. Um, so I think within perinatal mental health. And within the larger scope of mental health as well, there's just all these layers.
And each of those layers can have their own barriers. And also you yourself can be an own barrier to your care, right? And, and I don't say that in terms of like, people stop themselves from getting care, but also just, you have to feel safe speaking to somebody about how you're feeling in order to even be able to access care and to be able to know where to look too.
So, you know, there's even a lot of practical barriers around like, What do I even Google search for this? Yeah. Um, do I have access to a computer and wifi at all times? Like where am I even going in the community with my baby? That could be an access point to support. And does that space even feel safe? So there's, there's a huge amount of barriers that I think we don't.
Consider because in Kitchener Waterloo in particular, historically, it's like a fairly like middle class, upper middle class, like that's kind of who's holding the power here is like a fairly conservative gender, like middle upper middle class system. And so it's like, well, you go to your doctor. And right there, it's like there's about five barriers like, you know.
To do you even have a doctor? Do you feel safe with your doctor? Um, yeah, so I think it's just not, it's not embedded. And there's a lot of people that are left out of that system because, you know, within our medical system too, it's like the assumption is that you can speak English. Um, there's a lot of societal assumptions that are made about people, particularly in this region.
And, and that can really create a lot of barriers for people to to getting the services that they need. Um, so I think For us, it's, it feels like part of our work is also just actually stepping through those pathways and logging like, Oh, that would be a barrier like in this setting. Oh, there's another potential barrier.
Cause I think it takes time just to fully understand all of the different levels of barriers that somebody could be confronting, um, in order to like, it feels like we're even still in this process of like learning where other barriers. Yeah. Um, that in itself is like a whole, a whole process, right? Yeah.
Even just for folks to be able to find together Waterloo and what you both do, right? Mm-Hmm. , once they find you, yes. You can connect them. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . But yeah. How do you know? If you don't know? You don't know. Right. So where, how do you Yeah. Get. I guess that's would be like maybe a question for you, Lisette.
So how do you get your name out there and get your business out there to find these clients and make sure that they are getting the advice and the support that they need? Yeah. Um, so a lot of it is just networking. Yeah, making connections. It, um, I mean, we maintain a resource list of local therapists who have a specialty or training in perinatal mental health and, um, keeping relationships with them.
Um, and just, you know, finding out if like sort of, um, Finding out who has like availability or who has a sliding skill spot or who can do a pro bono right now. Um, and just like not being afraid to ask for that. Yeah. Um, on behalf of people who reach out to us and just being like, we have this person who really needs the support that they can't afford.
Um, and, and in doing our networking like that, it's, it's helps us find where all the holes are and who. Isn't represented amongst the therapists locally or who, what groups, like, what are the groups that are available and who wouldn't find them accessible for a variety of reasons. I mean, it was great that, that in the last five years, um, we've seen perinatal mental health supports in the region, but for a large part of it, it's.
They're like white presenting therapists who, who don't always have free spots. Um, it's, um, still that one therapy group, um, or support group, sorry. Um, who like, isn't always going to be accessible for every single parent because that's not, um, where they would fit. Like maybe they can't leave the house or maybe.
You know, it's just not a space where they feel safe. Yeah. Um, so it's seeing that and realizing like what we need to help build, um, and who and where we can, you know, sort of partner and collaborate and support existing parenting programs and just giving them the knowledge about perinatal mental health and helping them work through how that shows up in their community.
And how they can best support them. And in doing so we're networking and creating that relationship where if they have a person who approaches them with perinatal mental health struggles, they know that they can come to us and we're going to give like as unbiased support as we can. Um, just being like, okay, do we need to go with them?
As a white person to their appointment. Yeah. To just like be that advocate in that situation. Um, Just because we have the knowledge, right? So it's. Yeah, I don't know if that answered the question. Yeah, no, that's great. I think it can be, it can be scary, it can be intimidating, right? Because, again, we live in a culture where we're not supposed to say that we're struggling and we're not supposed to admit that and so, yeah, if you are unaware of the support that exists and then Yeah, you're not able to find a match that sort of suits your needs, then that can be a very scary experience going alone.
So I love that, that you offer that option to go with them. Yeah, and the one benefit now too is like, even though we're talking about regional, because we very much are Kitchener Waterloo. Like the beauty of what happened in the pandemic is how many therapists are working with people virtually now. So if we don't have people who are a good match here, we have a far larger network that we can reach out to, you know, we have connections in Toronto.
We partner with perinatal wellbeing, Ontario, like suddenly there's just more opportunity so that if it's not actually in the region, then we can still reach out and find other people and people who also practice in this way of actually taking into consideration. your regional culture, um, in terms of how that can influence, like, how that can create barriers potentially to you finding what you need or just the fact that you are going to a therapist in Toronto virtually because like, okay, so you're having a hard time finding support locally.
It's really been a lot about relationships for us, I think, just building more and more and more relationships. Um, so that we can just be a touch point, even if we're not the people who end up getting the support for someone that we still just get to be a part of the conversation and say, Oh, okay, so we're actually going to send you here.
Or, you know, we just have really been missing having that perinatal mental health touch point in, in this region. And, um, yeah, I just think those relationships are so, so important because every person that we meet and every organization that we meet. You know, oftentimes people will, I think some of the partnerships that we have, people would be like, well, why would you want to partner?
You know, like it might not make sense, but when you really think about like, well, this organization, you know, for example, like we've been talking a lot about, um, like what can we do to support more people who are precariously housed and potentially experiencing loss or considering whether to stay pregnant or not, or continuing with their pregnancy.
And so people might be like, well, why are you going? Like, why are you reaching out to shelters? And it's like, well, are there people who can give birth there? Yeah. There is a connection. Right. And so I think the more that we start to see it that way, the more it's like every single organization in this region is somehow connected to parents.
And if you're connected to parents or people who have children or people who are choosing not to have children or people who are experiencing loss, people who are experiencing fertility struggles, like all of that is perinatal mental health. Um, So where it used to be like, Oh, it's just this perinatal mental health thing, or it's just postpartum depression, which we know it's not now.
Um, the more you start to realize, like, it's just everything it's embedded in everything. So that's why those relationships become so important because we can also talk to people and say, well, this is where we see that you might come into contact with someone who's experiencing perinatal mood and anxiety disorders.
Which you might not have considered as a part of your organization before. However, like, if you are meeting people who might become parents, then we need to have a conversation. Um, yeah, and I think that's also kind of why just staying grassroots was really important to us. Because then it is about forming those relationships with other people who are on the ground.
Yeah. And who are grassroots organized grassroots organizations. Yeah. I love that. Well, the whole saying it creates, or it takes a village, right. But I feel like in our culture, we've sort of lost that model. Right. So I feel like you're sort of creating that model again for people, which is amazing. Yeah.
That's the hope, or even to just say like, I think there's a village somewhere and then they can just call us and we'll be like, yep, come on over. I love that. So amazing. So you sort of touched on together and I would love to just hear More about how together came to be and sort of what, what it does for people in our region.
So Lisette, do you want to tell us a bit more about that? Catherine and I met through, uh, our midwifery clinic, um, and sort of in our blossoming friendship, uh, uh, just, you know, I think we became really kind of angry, like in a, in a sense of like, Things need to change and this isn't okay. And we, there was a lot of it.
We can just say there was a lot, just like we had enough. Did we have enough capacity? Didn't we have enough, whatever we, we did it. We, um, we're just like, things need to change. Uh, more resources are needed. What can we do to build that? And like things are happening regionally. But it was really slow for us because we're just like, there are parents birthing now.
They can't wait for like the red tape and bureaucracy so that like regionally things can change. We can make change happen now because we can provide a support group. We can provide peer to peer just being a peer ourselves. Um, so That's sort of what we did. And it kind of grew. We, we started doing the climate of the darkness fundraiser that we learned about because we both were in the same PSI training.
Um, And, and we were just like, can we do this here? And like, maybe we can keep it locally and use some of the funds to like. Offer programming of any kind. And so we did, and that's sort of how we, we grew and flourished. And then we were just like, The other part was that we're too independent. Um, without really an organization backing us.
And so we found that to become like a bit of a barrier for ourselves. So we're just like, let's just make an organization, um, and do this all under like the umbrella of together for perinatal mental health. And that really has really helped. And it's been amazing to see. Like where together was a year ago versus now and how interwoven and interconnected that we've managed to become.
And just like the amount of people saying like, this is, this is what was needed. It was just like, as like Catherine was saying was like a touch point of like, where can like the professionals come to, where can parents come to, to like bridge that gap of the unknown. And, um, Yeah, so that's sort of like what we do.
I mean, we, we do support groups. We do, we've done peer support groups. We do therapy based support groups, Catherine leads expressive arts based therapy groups. Um, right now we actually have a pay what you can practicum student so they can offer, um, that one on one therapy support at a very accessible rate.
Um, Yeah. So we're like, we're trying to like eliminate those barriers and we're trying to create therapy based support groups that are, you know, for, I always want to call them niches, but like for specific parents, like having, we just had a 2SLGBTQIA plus, uh, therapy support group. That ran, um, which, you know, we ended up making it Ontario wide because people kept asking us.
Yeah. Um, it's not, it wasn't a group that was supported. And so we're just hoping that like with funding as we grow, that we can, you know, offer like finding a therapist to continue running that two S LGBTQIA plus group. Um, And the thing that's unique more to us is that in terms of like where people can get subsidized care in the region, it's usually for only six to eight sessions.
Yeah. But together, we're really like pushing it to 12 weeks, um, of support for the parents. So like, you're looking at a 12 week therapy based support group. That might be the only therapist that that person Has an opportunity to have any work with, and we're doing it for free. Amazing. So it's just trying to like, where can we remove the barriers?
Where can we use our privilege to, to, you know, ask the questions and make those connections and make partnerships where we can like run these groups and have them facilitated by, by people with lived experience as well. There's a lot of I think because we're parents too and Lisette and I are constantly like checking each other's capacity because Lisette and I are both people who have a tendency to go beyond capacity with what we do.
I mean let's just admit we are also rambunctious people by nature. Um, definitely we're like fueled by I mean, I wouldn't just say anger, but like we get very activated when we're just, you know, when we see something that we're like, why, why, like, why is that happening? Um, there's a lot of cross checking.
There's a, you know, I feel like together really came out of this, like, could we do this? And, and then it's like, yeah, we could, or, and sometimes there's also just like a pile of things where it was like, can we do this? And we were like, no, we don't have the capacity for that. So it's this constant, like.
touch point of questions of like, can we do this? Yes, we can. And so it was just like, the ball kept rolling and we kept following the like, oh yeah, we could do this. Like, that's actually really easy. Or we have this connection already. Or, you know, with the climb out of the darkness, it was like, here's this pre existing fundraising event that we could actually use and.
Keep the money and then offer free services. Um, and at the time too, I had like an exhibition that was running and the exhibition was like specific to, um, looking at perinatal mood and anxiety experiences. And it was like, well, let's just do that at the same time. Like everything just kind of fell into place.
So then the next question was just like, could we be a nonprofit? And it was like, Oh yeah, we could. Um, you know, not to make it sound like we're going by the seat of our pants, but it's this constant check in of like, can we do that? And then it's like, yes or no, or yes, but we need a little bit more. So let's like table that.
And then. See if we find the people who can make that happen. Um, and sometimes it's just a, like, no, that's not going to work right now. You know, um, we're going through that even with like funding right now where it's like, okay, there's a lot of funding that's not available to us because we're just too young as an organization.
So it's a, not right now. Yeah. Like give us a year and two years and then that will be a yes. So we're just like constantly following the yeses. Um, and I think that's a really big part of what we do is like. We're, we're just following the yeses and then people are finding us that kind of support those yeses.
Um, and, and we're also really fortunate that by being a non profit we were able to Suddenly we have a board of directors. Um, and we actually have some, like a really incredible board of directors. And so, you know, we have those moments where we're like, is this our board? This is out of control. This is crazy.
But then also that just puts us in this beautiful space of like, now our board is helping us be like, you could do this too. And like making those connections for us where it's not increasing necessarily. It's not pushing us into over capacity. It's helping us see, like, You already have this. You could just put it over here and then you're like, Oh yeah.
So it's a lot of like. It feels like a very feminist sort of way of doing things. You know, like how do we all do this together? How do we help each other see each other's capacities? How do we leave space when we don't have capacity, but we acknowledge that we need to do that at some point. And how can we all just like realize the actual skills that we're sitting on?
Cause I think as Lisa and I coming into this as two independents, we really were coming from like quite a powerless place because you do need to be backed in this region to be taken seriously. Right. Like people respond to like, Oh, we're a nonprofit organization versus like I'm a perinatal mental health advocate.
Right. Like. So that was really important to us was like, how do we just raise the attention? And so being able to actually make that our own organization, it has shifted everything where now it's like, we do have, we're not just coming to the table as two people. Yeah. We're coming to the table as a nonprofit with a board.
That's incredibly well respected that we love. Um, And we feel like we've kind of been able to then raise our voices as well. And I mean, that's really part of the goal is for us to get our voices heard a little bit more. Cause then everyone else can get their voices heard a little bit more too. I love that.
So how long has together existed? We started in, wasn't it 2020? It was right in the middle of conversations at the end of 2020. Um, and I think we like launched together as like, An organization in, in 2022. Yeah. So the nonprofit is like in its first year, but we're doing our third climb out of the darkness event.
Okay. So we were running it independently as like, you know, just two grassroots folks in the beginning. Okay. So this'll be our third fundraising year, our first year as. It's a nonprofit. Amazing. I did climb out of the darkness, not last year, but the year before. So that would have been, would that have been the first year then?
That would have been the first year that, yeah. Was it one? Um. Because the very first year that we ran Climb Out of the Darkness, it was in partnership with the Postpart Exhibition. Yes, that's, that was the one. That was our very first one. It was incredible. I actually heard about it through a friend of mine who's a social worker at a local hospital.
So she told me about it and I said, that sounds wonderful. So yeah, I attended with her. I got connected with, um, Bronwyn, uh, Adiko, Adiko, with, uh, yeah, so I've connected with her, she's a doula, and, uh, just, it helps me connect to, even myself, connect to a bunch of wonderful, um, practitioners in the area, so.
That was a really cool thing that I got from that too. It was wonderful just for my mental health and to feel less alone, even though I had, you know, kind of gone through the motions of my feeling and recovery at that point, but still. So it was wonderful. Yeah. So yeah, that is considering it. When is it this year?
Lisette, the climate of the darkness will be taking place on Saturday, June 24th. Okay. Coming up. 30 in the morning at the civic center park. That's next to the central KPL. I mean, yeah. Do you want to tell us a bit more just about how people can get involved in climb out of the darkness? First of all? Yeah.
So, um, there's a few ways you can get involved. Um, one is just, um, to donate. That'd be great. Um, the funds are going directly towards, um, supporting life with a baby, um, foundation is how it's receivable. Um, so some of the funds go that way, but also it goes towards us being able to put on our free programming and our free support.
Um, And also our like community trainings and knowledge exchanges that we do with local organizations who have pre existing parenting programs, just to like bring that perinatal mental health knowledge. So there's that. There's also, you know, becoming a participant, um, creating your own fundraising page and reaching out to your friends, colleagues, family, um, to reach a goal of whatever you want to set for yourself.
You'll get your own like fundraising link that you can you can send folks. And you can also just come and join us on the day, um, and just be part of that community of folks who have Like if you've had your own experience of perinatal mental health, that's kind of like a neat coming together of people who've been through the same experience as you.
And it's sort of, um, it's a collective, like walking out of that darkness of, of knowing how it felt and knowing that there is light, um, in terms of like your own personal journey. Um, Towards like being well, because, you know, we do know that if you get support. You can be well, um, again, and feel more like a human again.
So it's sort of just like, it's like a celebration. It's, it's just an opportunity to connect. Um, we often have some of the therapists have joined us in the past. So. It's a great opportunity just to, for, for professionals to network it's, uh, or just for parents to meet the therapists. Um, just sort of in like a super casual, no pressure, um, kind of event.
Um, it's sort of, there's like activities for adults life with a baby. Waterloo region is coming to run activities for kids. Um, and like, we'll do a bit of a walk together, um, just because it's kind of nice to do that piece. Um, and then it's just kind of a chance to hang out in a park with a playground and, um, yeah.
Yeah. And we'll be taking, I mean, we'll, we'll be able to even just collect donations at the event too. But, um, we also still have room for sponsorships. So if there's like You know, as someone who has like a small business or, um, their own therapy practice, uh, we have certain tiers of support, so people can become star supporters or peak supporters or, um, you know, and then we can provide like an Instagram post, put the logos on our website.
So really, I mean, anybody who would want to support us, if they just email us at info at together, waterloo. ca, they can. get in touch with us and let us know if they want to support or not and we can sort of give them the direction. Um, and we also have it listed on our website as well. Is it under support, Lisette, or is it under, if you go to advocacy, so if you go to togetherwaterloo.
ca and you click under active advocacy, then it, Lists climate, the darkness and sort of gives instructions as to how people can join that. But yeah, or people can just email us and be like, Hey, I want to support this. And we'll be like, great. Here's all your different options. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good opportunity for us to just say, thank you to you for becoming one of our star supporters.
Yeah. Um, it's great to have people coming back and supporting us through, um, everything that we're doing and offering us this opportunity, um, on your podcast. And it's the bedrock of the fundraising. Like all of our star supporters are really forming like the foundation of the money that we're able to raise.
So it, it really makes a difference. Amazing. Well, we touched on before we started recording, just I'm working in sort of the perinatal mental or sorry, the perinatal health world, but in a different capacity in pelvic health and fitness and. Yeah. 100%. This is so needed. I refer out to mental health therapists all the time for my clients.
So just knowing more, just even for myself in my community to have referral sources is so imperative. So just thank you both for the work that you do. Just. Um, and more support and more options for people is just so needed. Yeah. Thank you for doing your work too, because very often in that postpartum period, like we touched on this before we started recording, but.
People will be that much more inclined to take care of their bodies. Yeah. After they've given birth because we've sort of learned, like after you give birth, think about pelvic floor, physio, think about massage, think about all these things. And. It's easier for people to be like, Oh, this is physically helping me.
So I'm going to go do that. Right. And so the more like physiotherapists pelvic floor therapists, lactation consultants that, that become like aware of like, Hmm, this client is like, there's something sitting uncomfortably with me about the story they're sharing. Then the more we can start to like circle around and be like, yeah, like checking that your mental health is okay.
Is also as important as checking if like your pelvic floor is okay. Um, and sometimes like, yeah, we need those practitioners to be able to say, have you ever thought about talking to someone about this? Right. Um, because it's not going to be the first thing very often. It's not going to be the first thing that people go do because we take it all on very, very Personally, like it is, it is fairly societally standard for primary parents and birthing parents to say, I must have done something wrong to feel this way, instead of it being like what's happening to me.
Um, whereas they'll be like, Oh, well, I, you know, gave birth. So of course my c section scar hurts or like my perineum hurts or whatever. So I think just the more that we can kind of make it standard of like, let's consider all the components of you. And it's not because you've done something wrong or you failed, or you're not living up to the expectation that you're not enjoying this.
Like there might actually just be something here that chemically is off in your body, hormonally is off in your body. Um, Yeah. And the more practitioners that can sort of pick up on that, the more important, but often you guys are like the gateway, right? Because someone will come to you for a massage or an appointment, and then they're just bawling.
And you're like, Ooh, let's, let's have a conversation here. Um, so that hopefully eventually, it's just like a part of what you do. Like, let's take care of your body. Let's take care of your mind. Let's take care of your heart. Let's take care of your baby. Like all of those things together. 100%. And I think sort of the underlying thing there is, this is what I recognize.
And I think it is changing is that. When I was going to my postpartum appointments, it was all about my baby, which of course we want baby to be okay and healthy, but I felt, I felt like no one was really asking and how are you doing? And so I think that is, you know, where we sort of land in this world is just.
Focusing on mom, you know, she often, they don't often get that attention. It's more about babies. So, so, so important that, yeah, we just keep advocating for that for people. So we touched on climb out of the darkness. Is there any other advocacy initiatives that you take on that people can be aware of to help out with?
I mean, we'll probably Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, it feels for us, like if we have people who feel like they might have a piece of advocacy, like, please just reach out to us. Okay. Because we definitely, the more bewildered relationships with organizations and people, like if there's an organization out there, that's like.
Should we have knowledge about perinatal mental health? Like, just call us and we are happy to advocate. We are happy to say, yes, this is how you're connected to this world. This is where we see this as being a part of the population that you serve. Um, I mean, I think we're just, We're aiming to just start advocating for a lot of the populations that tend to be marginalized in this region that tend to be sort of like at higher risk just for existing in the way that they do.
So that was part of our starting with 2SLGBTQIA support because there's a lot of medical discrimination. There's a lot of systemic discrimination there, and there's just a very different experience of becoming a parent often. And so I think, yeah, like we're looking to advocate more for. Um, race based data collection in the region, particularly around birthing and postpartum care, because we don't have that.
And we know that, like, we know that the rates of maternal mental health, um, And maternal death for black families is pretty much parallel in Canada as it is to the States, but we don't actually have the numbers and we need the numbers. Um, so that's something that we'd like to advocate for, um, and just continue to advocate for like people with children and family service involvement, people living in poverty, people living in precarious housing.
So I think for us, it just feels like if there's an organization that supports a population that feels overlooked a lot of the time. And we know that there's people building families in that community. Like we want to talk to you. We want to know what is it that's affecting your population? Um, is it a population that has more like social service involvement?
Why is that? Like to look at that. So we're really hoping that we can just continue to advocate for everyone that gets overlooked. Um, Find those, find those holes in the system a little bit more. Yeah. Love that. Amazing. So we touched on a lot today. Thank you so much for being so open and sharing. Is there anything else that comes to mind that you would love to leave our listeners with?
Um, let's start with you, Lisette. Not to put you on the spot, . I'm like, I feel like you covered all the things. Yeah. I think the biggest thing is that because we are grassroots, because we are. a non profit, we, funds aren't accessible to us. Um, so people just sharing about our existence is super helpful. Um, because for us, it's, um, that word of mouth and getting Known is what helps because then we have those connections that we can make with people who just want to donate, um, or give us money, um, to run groups.
Because as of right now, we can't run any groups because we're, we have no money until the climate money comes in. Um, we've run our groups and we're at capacity where we can't take on any more, uh, unpaid labor. Um, Just for like a variety of reasons of wanting to be a sustainable organization that is also, you know, respective of, of our time and our capacity.
Yeah. So just like sharing, donating, any, any way of getting the word out that like we, we can help. Um, with folks is training on mental health journeys or organizations that already work with parents but want that little bit more knowledge is also something that we can help with. Mm hmm. Amazing. Anything to add there, Catherine.
No, I feel like that covers it. Yeah, I think just that the more, the more relationships we can build, then the stronger we can make this community and, um, the more change we can make. So, yeah, I think just for people, you know, the more people can like be aware of us, reach out to us, talk to us, share our information, um, Yeah.
Then the more it just benefits, it benefits everyone. Like it doesn't just benefit us as an organization. It benefits the whole region. So yeah. And, and also just like, we're happy to have conversations and just say like, where does this play in for you? Like, where, where do you see this? Where do you see perinatal mental health as being a part of the work that you do or where you might be intersecting with that work?
Um, we would just love to continue to build relationships because there's so many. You know, there's so many people we haven't reached yet in Waterloo. Um, that, yeah, I mean, we're very approachable. So share, yeah, like Lisette said, share our information, come to the climb and meet us in person. Find out more about who we are.
Um, follow us on Instagram and yeah, just. Happy to have a bigger village if people want to join our village. Yeah. Amazing. So I'll put all of this in the show notes. So what is your Instagram handle for people to follow you? It's at Together Waterloo. Awesome. And what's your website? Togetherwaterloo. ca.
Amazing. And do you have plans? I'm just curious. Um, so Together Waterloo, do you plan to branch out to other cities and regions as well?
Together, together. Toronto. Part of what we're hoping to do through what we're establishing now and like the work that we're doing is to be able to say like, here's something that worked in this region. Yeah. What if there were other people in this other region who would want to use that and get it going over there?
Amazing. It's like a framework of stories. Yeah. Of like, this is like what we did. Mm-Hmm. . This is who we reached out to. Mm-Hmm. . This is what didn't go well. Like if we can create. Like it is sort of like on that back burner of like, yeah, wouldn't it be great if there were like together in other areas. Yeah, yeah, like a together.
I don't know. I can't remember any towns. There was like a together Niagara or like a London or it would be so yeah. Yeah, to see that happen. But like at this rate, we're just like. Grassroot funding. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's also that awareness of like, even just Waterloo region, like, cause I'm still relatively new to this region.
It takes a lot to know your own region. Right. Um, and so I think, and then also we are just have a certain amount of capacity, but there is something beautiful about thinking about like, yeah, for somebody else in another region to be like, you know what I. I have been really getting to know this region and here's what I'm noticing and what I'm not, you know, we would be happy to have, it would be amazing if that could exist in more spaces.
Um, without necessarily like Lisa tonight, because I think there is something important to people who live and experience the region that they're in, then being able to create something that works for that region. That's like under this sort of same umbrella. But yeah, that's always on the back burner for us.
It's like, Ooh, like, how could we, you know, and we're also very fortunate to have a partnership with. A really great relationship with perinatal well being Ontario. And we often say like, we kind of want to be the PWO, but like just in this region and how amazing if like all of Ontario just had these, this template that could kind of get spread around, um, from just other people who are angry and activated and have their own lived experience.
Um, and who would want to, who would want to do the same thing. I think it just makes. the whole, it just makes every community stronger. And we often say too, like, even if there's just like two people who show up at your group, those are two people who needed your help that day. For sure. Um, and so, you know, even if it's just this seemingly small community of people.
It's always going to be bigger than we think because we know the stats, you know, it's, it's one in five people who have kids. So, and I mean, during the pandemic, it got even worse. It was like one in two parents was going to experience postpartum anxiety and pregnancy anxiety. Um, so the stats are showing us that like, it's very needed everywhere.
Yeah. It's mostly just about trusting that you're needed and then being able to say like, if you start this over there, let me tell you, you're gonna find, like, you're gonna find the people. So yeah, that would be great. But I think it's like definitely part of future plans for sure. Down the road. Down the road.
Yep. But it would be great. It would be great to see it in every region. Honestly. Yeah. So needed. Thank you so much. Both of you for taking the time to talk to me today. Um, I think it's just going to be such helpful, valuable information for everyone to hear. And again, we'll post everything in the show notes.
If anyone wants to get involved and be a part of the advocacy for your organization. Yeah. So wonderful. Thank you so much for having us. Thanks for listening to today's podcast. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. If you liked what you heard, we would love if you could share this with a friend, leave us a review, or subscribe to anywhere that you listen to your podcasts.
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